Digging Deeper into the Questions: Jessica Grose
Season 1, Episode 7
When you discover you’re pregnant, it can feel like the world shifts on its axis. After New York Times opinion writer Jessica Grose had her first child, the experience set her on a new path to dig into the questions of what motherhood would entail - both the perception and the reality. In this episode, we discuss her book SCREAMING ON THE INSIDE, as well as places to have optimism for systemic changes to support moms.
Listen below or on your favorite platform:
Show Notes
About Jessica Grose:
Read and subscribe to her New York Times columns here.
Purchase a copy of “Screaming On The Inside: The Unsustainability of American Motherhood” here.
About Amy Kugler:
Check out Amy's website and writing.
Sign up for Unscripted, Amy’s bi-monthly newsletter.
About the Show: “And More with Amy Kugler” is a production of BEAM, a venture dedicated to amplifying the untold stories of motherhood and building public/private/advocacy partnerships to shift policy for moms nationally and globally.
For more information about BEAM, visit welcometobeam.com.
To financially support, visit BEAM’s crowdfunding page.
Share your own perspective on BEAM’s website.
Transcript
Jessica Grose:
I don't ever want to be Pollyanna-ish and not pretend that there are not still issues and problems, but I think it's actually helpful, for me at least, to separate the things that are fixable through policy and, you know, kind of systemic change and things that are kind of emotionally eternal.
Because I do think that there's no... Parenthood will always be hard.
It will always be complicated, it will, I don't know that it will ever be 100% equally boring by, you know, men and women.
But I, I like to think about what what actually can be changed, you know, and I think of the things that actually can be changed, we are moving forward.
Amy Kugler:
This is And More with Amy Kugler. It's a show where we'll explore all of the stories about motherhood and caregiving and how they can be a driving force for change. We'll talk about the challenging and hilarious moments that we rarely say out loud, and we'll find a way forward that lifts us all up. Let's get started.
Amy Kugler
Hey everyone, it's Amy and I have been thinking a lot about a quote that I heard from today's guest.
Are you ready for it?
Moms are the shock absorbers of society.
I'm going to let that one sink in because for me, there is so much freedom in that statement because I know I'm not alone.
I mean, I feel seen in that.
Even with incredibly supportive partners, and I have one, Dave's incredible, but it's often hard to put my finger on any singular reason I feel off or overwhelmed.
And if there's anything we know about all of the roles we play as moms and caregivers, it's that it's nuanced.
There's a number of factors.
It's not just one that contributes to the current state of our world.
And if I'm looking around, one of my go-to voices that highlights the nuances of parenthood, shines a spotlight on the systemic issues that mothers face, and adds a dash of pop culture sprinkled in, is today's guest, Jessica Grose.
And she's here with us today.
I'm so excited.
How are you doing, Jessica?
Jessica Grose: I'm good. Thanks so much for having me.
Amy Kugler
All right, I'm going to tell you a little bit about Jess and then we'll dive into the rich conversation.
Jessica is an opinion writer at the New York Times and author of four books.
Her newest book, Screaming on the Inside, The Unsustainability of American Motherhood is out now on paperback and I highly recommend you grab a copy. We will have all links in the show notes.
Her columns are an in-depth look at the policy and cultural conversations that we often feel are too complicated to tackle, and she's currently working on education, I think, is the last few articles that I saw, and I'm in awe and I'm digging in deep with, you know, two kids and two littles, especially one in elementary school.
Here's the thing is that when you read her columns, you know it's fueled by her curiosity as a mom of two kids and how we work and live and move around in this world as parents.
I'm excited to have Jess here today, not only to talk about her book, but also the current trends and issues that she's seeing in her reporting and how it impacts us all.
So with that, You know, a few things.
You've kind of done a few things.
Let's dig in.
We talk a lot in this, we talk a lot about motherhood being a mom and so many other things, right?
So when you think about that in your own life, you talk a lot about in your book about becoming a mom and the conversations around that and the complications around that.
But we also know you have two growing kids.
So is there a story from your life currently or in the past in the book that solidifies you being that mom and, and, and?
Jessica Grose:
Well, I was actually just thinking about it this weekend hearing you talk about how, you know, it's not just one thing that is leading to moms.
I think that feeling a little bit overwhelmed and even, you know, they're a very present and giving counterpart.
We were going on a long walk with my two girls who are 7 and almost 11 and I realized that they had not asked my husband a single question.
Like they were just talking at me for this was like a 45 minute walk.
And I was like, guys, dad is right there.
You can request information from him.
You can tell him a story like I even will say I won't just like thinking in my head, I will actually say it to them because I want them to be aware that they have two equal parents that, you know, and I don't it's almost like I was questioning us.
I'm like, where did we go wrong?
Because we have always been equally involved.
Like,
From day one, he got up with them.
I don't know why.
Is it society?
I don't know.
But I feel like the only thing I can do to ameliorate the situation is actually point it out.
They're old enough to have it be pointed out to them.
A revelatory moment.
No, I mean, I've heard this.
I've obviously commiserated with friends about this, and I think this is not a universal experience, but a very typical dynamic that plays out in heterosexual couples with their kids.
Totally, totally.
Amy Kugler:
Well, and I think your comment around the question of where did we go wrong
I actually kind of want to dive into that a little bit because at the end of the day, right, like we are working to be the best parents we have.
You have a whole book on that right around the perception of motherhood and parenthood and what that looks like.
And as you are writing this book, what was coming up for you in terms of the like the conversations of how did I like did I do something wrong?
Did I do something right?
Is it really this black and white?
How did you tackle the
The Black and White Thinking and how those things came up for you as you wrote.
Jessica Grose:
I harbored a lot of guilt, especially about my, how I became the mother.
So I, long story short, it's in the book, I got pregnant, so very excited to it was planned.
But then I got incredibly sick.
So I got hyperemesis, which is hyper emesis, I always mispronounce it, extreme nausea and vomiting, the technical definition is you lose 5% of your body weight or more.
um which I did in my first trimester um and I had to quit a job and I always you know was very serious about work I continue to be um and I just was really so sick and I still felt sort of a lingering guilt like oh does this mean I can't hack it does this mean I was I'm not a natural mother or some you know just total nonsense because you know so many
Women struggle with their health while they're pregnant.
We want to imagine that our bodies are just built for this.
And it's like, in some ways, sure, but like, a lot of stuff happens, and you might not feel great.
And it's not your fault.
Um, that doesn't mean obviously we all have free will and we all make choices in our lives.
But I think, um, you know, interviewing so many women with so many wildly different experiences, you know, from all different demographic and economic backgrounds, really just made me feel like, okay, there are some ways in which
My personal choices had nothing to do with what happened and and that you can only do so much within what you're given.
And so I think, you know, mostly it was quite validating I think in terms of writing the book.
Going back through and writing about the difficult times that I had was tough.
It wasn't that fun to put myself back in the mindset of those moments, but I think it was ultimately sort of exercised them.
Like it was like, okay, I can move on from these feelings now.
And I think I was able to do that.
So that was great.
I don't know that I've ever had a writing experience that really felt like it was
So, uh, emotionally satisfying in the end.
Amy Kugler
That's a, that's a whole new level of catharsis.
And as someone who's in the middle of writing her own memoir about these pieces, right?
I'm so, I'm hoping for the same outcome that you had.
That catharsis is really, really important and obviously completely unexpected because this book is
is is is really packed right with the history of the perceptions and of all of mom's roles and I'm putting air quotes around that right as a society shows that but also again that reporting from and the conversations with moms around the nation and and some global to of saying like this is what it means to be a mom right now and it is untenable.
And I'm curious, like, this is something that you wrote within, like, in the pandemic, right?
And as I read the paperback, which is completely marked up, and as we look at the conclusion, it's looking past your publication date.
So as we look at the unsustainability of American motherhood now, right, since you've
published this book.
Are there any trends that you feel are highlighted or you would highlight differently in this book or call more attention to?
Jessica Grose
I don't think so.
I mean, one thing that I do, I have mentioned in other interviews is in the space between when I started writing the book and now many more states have passed paid leave.
So I do think I often see
a determined pessimism among some people who talk about these issues.
And I guess if anything, maybe I would have made the book even more optimistic.
I think right now it's sort of balanced.
And I think people see the title and they think it's going to be an ultimately very pessimistic book.
And I don't have that orientation.
I think it's meant to be tongue in cheek, obviously, and be a little funny and make people recognize what's going on.
But I think, you know,
I interviewed Claudia Golden not infrequently for my column and she just won the Nobel Prize for Economics and she has devoted her entire life to studying the economic fortunes of women in the United States, particularly in the United States, but elsewhere as well.
When you look at her work, you cannot deny how much progress women and mothers have made over the past 50, 60 years, like an unbelievable amount of progress.
And so I don't ever want to be Pollyanna-ish and not pretend that there are not still issues and problems.
But I think it's actually helpful for me, at least, to separate the things that are fixable through policy and, you know,
I like to think about what actually can be changed, you know?
And I think of the things that actually can be changed, we are moving forward.
Of the things that are harder and cultural and just in interpersonal relationships, I think some of those things can definitely improve.
But I wonder, this is an unanswerable question.
This is not a question I have answered.
I would win a Nobel Prize if I could answer this question.
But like I do, I do spend a lot of time thinking about like, okay, what is what is actually just the hard work of like living with the other humans in your life?
Amy Kugler
Oh my gosh, it's true.
And that's, and that's really where change does happen in so many different ways.
And I, you know, when we come back from break, what I'd love to do is dive into that because you bring the micro and the macro together at the end, in a way that is both systemic and human, you know, bringing it back to humanity.
So anyways, we will talk a little bit more about that after break with And More with Amy Kugler, and I've got Jessica Grose here with us.
Amy Kugler
Hey friends, welcome back.
This is And More with Amy Kugler and I am here with New York Times opinion writer Jessica Grose and we're talking a little bit about her book Screaming on the Inside, The Unsustainability of American Motherhood, but really what we're digging into is that
You know, despite the title, which I love, it is more of an optimistic book and an optimistic outlook than you would think about on the title.
And Jess was just telling us a little bit about that.
You know, Jess, when we think through how, like, life can change for moms, right?
And this is the social supports that can be there.
We talked a little bit about federal like paid leave for states.
on the push for federal pay leave as a whole.
But what I love about, you know, the reflections, especially at the end, is that it's also personal, right?
And shifting our own cultural expectations about what motherhood can be, right?
And one of the things that I'm going to read you back to yourself, if that's okay.
Is that all right?
I love the conversation that you had in the conclusion around ambivalence and around how giving moms the space to be human and have a range of those emotions.
I'd love to know from you, I know that this was a personal story from you and, you know, how we can advocate for better policies.
But as individuals, what you write is what we can do today and every day moving forward is allow ourselves and other moms to be fully human.
And as simple as that might sound, I'd love for you to break down what that might mean for for you and your community.
Jessica Grose:
So I mean, the story that I sort of tell in the book to start that the conclusion is I was, you know, meeting up with a friend who was pregnant with her second child.
And she was telling me like, I'm not I, you know, I wanted to be pregnant, but I'm nervous about the baby coming.
I'm not really sure how I feel about it.
Like, I'm wondering if I regret this decision.
And I was like,
Amy Kugler
: You know, have been researching this and and thinking about this couldn't just sit with her negative emotions and so like i'm sure there's like many moments in our lives, where you know moms who.
Amy Kugler, Ph.D.
: Are mom friends are telling us something that we're just trying to be like oh you shouldn't feel that way, and you know it sounds.
simplistic but I think just sitting with each other's negative emotions and validating them and not just being like oh you'll feel some other kind of way soon it's like no it's I feel this way and it's okay um and I actually I have a couple friends who um when I'm just really had it with everybody I just call them like they don't even I'm just like I'm gonna rant at you for five minutes
And you're just going to listen and be like, yes, and then like, it's just it's not even and they do the same for me, you know, and it's a release valve because you don't want to take, you know, you don't want to take your feelings ever out on your children or your spouse.
And so it's not about showing everybody in the world how you feel.
It's about finding productive ways to deal with these feelings, which you cannot avoid.
And I think, you know, one of the things that I try to emphasize a lot, it's hard for me to do, I still am very bad at it, is also asking for help and realizing that sometimes, you know, we've really built a community of friends here.
And they would be happy to help us when we need it.
I mean, just in terms of, I think about, you know, Monday was a day off for my kids.
And I was like, I didn't have work.
My friend did have to work on Monday.
I was like, just bring the kids here.
Like, it's fine.
The four of them will play together.
Like, well, I've got you.
And so, and my friends do the same for me, you know, when I can't be I can't be in six different places at once.
And it's, I'm definitely not suggesting that building those relationships is easy.
It takes time.
And they're not always available.
And, you know, it, it takes
A long time in a place and a long time being comfortable as a parent to leave your kids with somebody you know I'm not saying that should just be like oh you met someone yesterday like dump your kids on their doorstep like that's not yeah but I think all of us not all of us but like many of us just need to be better about asking for help.
Absolutely.
Amy Kugler
And I think to the rise of, you know, we see the trend of parents like myself, like we live in Seattle, my family lives across the country, right?
Some of us are not living close to those nuclear families, like how we were raised, right?
And how, you know, how that was expected, like you just go to grandma's kind of moments or those things.
And so building that community is vital.
and the barriers of asking for help are real, but I don't know about you, I just feel like sharing the stories, those stories that we kind of like push deep down because we're just trying to get through the day, those are the kinds of stories that we share with our mom friends, right?
Like those are the stories that like we were talking about over break, like bring the bottle of wine and like, let's sit down for a little bit or some tea and like, let me just vent, right?
like how do we like and building those communities are vital um as you kind of see your own community your own like parenting the village if you will moving forward has that changed as your kids have gotten older has that has it become different in any way
Jessica Grose:
Yeah, I do think it has become different.
I mean, just because you have friends for the seasons of your life and the friends that your kids have in preschool are not the friends that they have in elementary school.
And, you know, people I mean, I live in New York City, and a lot of people left, a lot of people left during the pandemic and didn't come back.
And so, um,
you know I think it's you have to sort of be flexible and and embrace sort of sometimes what's happened often is like friends who we already had but we weren't super close to we just we really like them yeah circumstances will change so that we see more of them and then you build those relationships over time so it's just sort of being open to the fluidity of your children's lives and who they are in different moments I mean my I can't even tell you how much my kids
have changed over time, and not just getting more mature, but really sort of growing into themselves in a way that's so fun to watch, but just means that, you know, their needs are constantly changing, our work situations are constantly changing.
There just is not, there's never going to be stasis.
No, no, there's anything that is going to be a constant, it is change.
It's not a matter of, of when it's a matter of how.
Right.
And as you're dealing with those changes, those ebbs and flows, and I guess, actually, broadly, as you're working and reporting on those changes, and ebbs and flows, what are the big changes that you see in your reporting and the big trends that you see in your reporting coming to light from moms?
Well, I mean, I do think that work is becoming more flexible, more understanding about caregiving needs.
Again, is it perfect?
No.
But I do think that
2020 really opened up a conversation about flexible work and I don't think that you're ever going to reverse that.
Amy Kugler
Yeah, you talk about radical flexibility in work.
Can you explain a little bit more about that concept?
So the idea of radical flexibility is that there just is not a one size fits all, that that's a constant negotiation between you and your manager.
Obviously, there are parameters, you can't just be like deadlines, what deadlines like there's boundaries of it, you need to show up when you need to show up and but within reason,
There is actually a lot of flexibility that many different people can have about where they work, about the specific hours they work.
Again, it's like, you can, I can't just be like, well, today I want to work 4am to like 9am.
And like, again, some jobs that might work, but like in general, like you need to be available during certain hours.
And like, I think that's understood.
But I think a lot of companies just say no to request
because they don't want to think about it.
They don't want to deal with it.
They don't want to have to grant them to everybody.
They think that systems can't work properly when people are working asynchronously.
And I think that that has just been completely disproven by what happened in 2020, 2021.
Like, it's just not true for many jobs.
Of course, it's not like, oh, a nurse can work remotely.
It's like, yes, there are certain jobs where you have to be in person.
But even within those parameters, in terms of
um shift work which you know doctors nurses who you know there there are certain you know professions that are on shifts letting people know their schedules very far in advance and having some power to negotiate what those schedules are um in terms of securing child care is imperative and so you know there's many
Jobs are all unique and different.
And I've talked, you know, interviewed people in so many different fields.
So I'm always reluctant to give one size fits all advice.
But I just think, you know, again, not just having arbitrary, there are a lot of rules are arbitrary.
And I think we have an opportunity to rethink which ones are actually necessary for, for a well functioning and productive workplace.
for sure.
And I think we'll also see in some ways, parents, caregivers, specifically moms who will shift into more of the roles that provide that flexibility if they don't have that now, I think, I don't know that we have totally seen the end of that shift or that that's shaking out, if you will.
Well, what's I mean, one interesting thing that is coming out, there's been research that's come out recently that showed dads are doing more caregiving when they were flexibly.
So it's
Good for equality.
It is good for lifestyle.
It is good for people who are not parents to be able to do things have have space in their lives to go to the doctor to take an afternoon off, like whatever, to take care of their own health.
I mean, I think about I'm, you know, I think also typical mom, it's like, I take time off for my kids health before I will take time off for my health.
So I have been putting off a mammogram for six months.
It's like it's just a yearly it's fine but it's like I I just keep not scheduling it because I'm like I don't want to take this morning off and like what if I need it for and it's like
No, I finally just scheduled it because I was like, you need to do this.
This is actually quite important for you to do.
It's a thing.
And it's taking care of ourselves.
So not just so that we can take care of our families.
It's just taking care of ourselves, right?
Like, we just need to do things.
Our partners, they will also need to do the things and we can give them the space and place to do that.
Amy Kugler
To your point of flexibility, especially for, I mean, we've noticed that again the research showing that and heterosexual couples to like having the men take on more of those responsibilities.
We saw that personally in our own home, when Evie was born in the last year and like
My husband took a job that was remote because we knew we needed that flexibility and it was vital for us.
And so I think we'll see some of those trends.
But I guess the takeaway is overall, don't reschedule your mammograms, ladies.
Guilty here, too.
You're not the only one.
We all have done it.
But taking time for making sure that we have that flexibility to take time for ourselves.
Oh, man, this wide ranging conversation
has been so delightful.
Jessica, thank you so, so much.
Where can our listeners find you?
Jessica Grose:
NYTimes.com.
I have a newsletter that comes out twice a week, Wednesdays and Saturdays, which you can sign up for at the Times.
But all those articles also go up on the Times website, so you can find them there.
But I always love a new subscriber.
And you can buy my book Screaming on the Inside wherever books are sold.
I love that.
We will put all of that in the show notes.
But I am so so grateful.
Thank you so much for being a part of this convo.
My pleasure.
Thank you for having me.
Amy Kugler
I have long admired Jess's work in the New York Times, and even before that, a Lenny Letter rest in peace.
I encourage you to pick up a copy of her book, Screaming on the Inside, because as I was flipping through the pages, even though it was a great mix of reporting and research and conversations with other moms, I just felt so seen.
I feel like there's a lot of this conversation that is so nuanced, and yet we need to have it.
And she tackles these things head on in her columns and her writing and in all the roles that she plays.
Here are some of my takeaways.
One, I was surprised but not surprised at her stating that she has more optimism and that there's more hope in the movement toward increased social supports for moms in the past five years.
I've seen this too, right?
I can compare my time as a mom for Brendan versus my time as a mom for Amy and they're about five years apart.
And I've seen a difference.
Sometimes we get wrapped up in the fact that we're not where we want to be in supporting moms and caregivers.
But really, we have made progress.
I appreciated Jess's perspective in this.
Two.
Sharing our stories about motherhood, the good, the bad, and the ugly is an incredible catharsis.
It was great to hear her say this about as she wrote this book, how she was really writing it to discover more about herself sometimes and about her experience.
I really appreciate that as I'm writing my own.
Three.
Even when you're writing the book or the articles about the roles we play as moms and caregivers, you are still discovering new parts about yourself.
Either they are to adjust, to build more boundaries, or to give yourself more grace.
Jess's vulnerability and honesty in this was huge.
And last but not least, schedule your doctor's appointments.
Moms, caregivers, you hear me talking to you.
Schedule your doctor's appointments.
Don't neglect those.
Don't neglect your health.
I am enriched by this conversation.
I hope you are too.
Until next time, onward and upward.
Amy Kugler
Before I go, I'd love to hear from you.
Have a story that we should talk about for and more?
Click the share your story button on welcometobeam.com and make sure you're signed up for our newsletter there to get all the information about upcoming events, giveaways, and more.
You can also follow us on Instagram at BEAM4MOMS.
That's B-E-A-M, the number 4, M-O-M-S.
I'd love to shout from the rooftops for my team who makes this beautiful show possible.
Special thanks to Stacey Harris, without whom the entirety of BEAM would have been just a fleeting thought.
Of course, Dave Nelson, the man behind the mic and all the production for all these things, Benny Mathers, our producer for the KK&W support, and graphic design by the inimitable Sullivan & Sullivan Studios.
And you know, I cannot forget my Dave, Brendan, and Evie, the trio that pushes me always to be more myself.
To all of BEAM's founding members, we are eternally grateful.
Thank you for your unwavering belief that the power of our stories can make a difference.
And to you, my gorgeous listeners and guests, we love you.
Thank you for trusting us with your stories and your time.
It would mean the world to us if you'd follow, rate, or review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get these stories.
and also share it with friends.
You know the ones that want to hear it.
Until next week, onward and upward, my friends.
We'll see you then.
Amy Kugler:
Before I go, I'd love to hear from you have a story that we should talk about For And More, click the share your Story button on Welcome to beam.com and make sure you're signed up for our newsletter there to get all the information about upcoming events, giveaways, and more. You can also follow us on Instagram at Beam for Moms. That's b e a m, the number four M O M S. I'd love to shout from the rooftops from my team who makes this beautiful show possible. Special thanks to Stacey Harris, without whom the entirety of beam would have been just a fleeting thought. Of course, Dave Nelson, the man behind the mic, and all the production for all these things. Benny Mathers, our producer for the KKNW support and graphic design by the Inimitable Sullivan and Sullivan Studios. And I cannot forget my Dave, Brendan, and Evie, the trio that pushes me always to be more myself. To all of Beam's founding members, we are eternally grateful. Thank you for your unwavering belief that the power of our stories can make a difference. And to you, my gorgeous listeners and guests, we love you. Thank you for trusting us with your stories and your time. It would mean the world to us if you'd follow rate or review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get these stories. And also share it with friends, the ones that want to hear it. Until next week, onward and upward, my friends. We'll see you then.
